550: Dr. Craig Heller on Cool Palms and Temperature Regulation for Higher Efficiency and Sleep


Episode Transcript

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Katie: Whats up and welcome to “The Wellness Mama Podcast.” I am Katie from wellnessmama.com and wellnesse.com, that is wellness with an E on the tip. And this episode is quite a bit about temperature, sleep, studying, and much more. That is an thrilling one for me. I am right here with Dr. Craig Heller, who’s a physician at Yale. He acquired his PhD from Yale in 1970. He did a post-doctorate fellowship on the Scripps Establishment of Oceanography. He joined Stanford College in 1972, the place he’s now the Lorry Lokey Enterprise Wire Professor of Biology and Human Biology. He is held many positions at Stanford. And he is finished a number of analysis centered on the neurobiology of sleep, circadian rhythms and thermoregulation, together with on issues like mammalian hibernation, and temperature controls. And this is among the causes I wished to have him on at this time, to speak about an enchanting…the Stanford cool mitt research.
And we go deep on a number of these subjects, together with how he acquired into warmth trade analysis, the fascinating approach that the mind regulates physique temperature and the way this can be utilized to our profit for athletic efficiency, for sleep. He talks in regards to the astounding research the place that they had somebody go from 180 pull-ups over units…in units of 10, 10 units, to 618 by including a cooling protocol, and he provides some pointers for a way we are able to all experiment with this in our personal lives.
We discuss quite a bit about temperature regulation and sleep hygiene, methods to enhance sleep that may be helpful to your youngsters as nicely. We speak about gentle and circadian rhythms, and a lot extra. He was such a enjoyable interview for me. I’ve adopted his work for a very long time, and he is in a position to give some actually sensible functions for a few of his actually fascinating areas of analysis. I do know that you’ll take pleasure in this interview. I definitely did, and I am excited to use a few of his concepts to my very own experimentation with athletic efficiency and in addition sleep. So with out additional ado, let’s be part of Dr. Heller. Dr. Heller, welcome. And thanks so, a lot for being right here.
Craig: Effectively, my pleasure. Thanks for inviting me.
Katie: I am very excited to talk with you. I’ve adopted your work and have so, many instructions I need to go at this time. However earlier than we leap into the science aspect, I’ve notes in my present notes about some superb issues that you’ve finished. And I’ve to listen to just a little bit about swimming on the North Pole and the truth that you probably did a thousand pushups in your sixtieth birthday. That is unimaginable.
Craig: You bought my deepest secrets and techniques there. No, the journey to the North Pole was a Stanford alumni journey during which I used to be the college host and the speaker, and my daughter and I at all times had a pact that every time we took a hike and we got here to a brand new lake, we needed to leap in. It did not matter what time of 12 months. So, once I had the prospect to go to the North Pole, I instantly referred to as her up and stated, okay, that is our likelihood. We have to take a swim on the North Pole. And we did.
Katie: That is superb. The farthest north I have been is the Lapland space of Finland. And we did the sauna after which acquired within the…it was 24-degree water, however transferring water. So, it wasn’t frozen. And that’s positively the coldest I’ve ever skilled. It was subsequent stage.
Craig: It is fairly a shock. However zero is zero. No, freezing is freezing. So, whether or not you are within the Sierra, Nevada, the place we hike quite a bit, or on the North Pole, it is just about the identical chilly publicity.
Katie: That is level. And it is a good segue as a result of we’re gonna discuss fairly a bit about chilly at this time and, specifically, a few of your analysis round this. I really feel like there’s some base phrases we are able to outline after which delve into the specifics of what you discovered. However I would love to listen to how you bought into this…form of you’ve got found a novel warmth trade property with sure areas of pores and skin. So, possibly stroll us into how you bought into that analysis.
Craig: Effectively, it form of got here from a problem or a wager that a number of my work needed to do with how the mind regulates physique temperature and that in fact was work with animals, together with hibernators. And at some point a pal who’s an anesthesiologist challenged my colleague and I and stated, “Effectively, you assume, you realize, so, a lot about temperature regulation. I wager you could not clear up an issue we now have within the restoration room.” “Effectively, what’s that?” Effectively, sufferers come into restoration very chilly, they’re hypothermic, and it takes them and it takes the nurses hours to get them to cease shivering and so they rip stitches, they even break tooth and the beds are virtually leaping up and down with the shivering. I stated to my pal, you realize, “Effectively, that is a trivial drawback.” Effectively, no, it is not a trivial drawback. It is a very tough drawback as a result of if you’re hypothermic in anesthesia and also you’re popping out of anesthesia, you’re very chilly and also you constrict all your blood vessels.
You retain the blood within the core of your physique, and due to this fact, it is exhausting to get warmth throughout the pores and skin. So, for those who use sizzling blankets, for those who use radiant heaters, it is very exhausting to rewarm these sufferers. So, we acquired the concept, “Effectively, we may put an arm or a leg right into a chamber with a unfavourable stress, a vacuum, that might pull blood into that arm or leg. After which we may warmth that arm or leg and that might then ship warmth to the remainder of the physique.” So, my colleague, Dennis Gron, he constructed an equipment to do this. He took it over to the restoration room and, nicely, within the first affected person, there was no shivering. It was like 8 to 10 minutes and the affected person was again as much as regular. And we could not perceive why this was unbelievably profitable.
And simply to make an extended story brief, we ultimately came upon that it had solely needed to do with the hand, not the entire arm. After which we got here to the conclusion that what we have been coping with was a mammalian adaptation for warmth loss. If you’re a mammal, you’ve fur. We’re uncommon mammals. When you’ve got a fur coat, it is nice within the wintertime, however if you cannot take it off in the summertime, that is an issue. So, mammals can have issues dissipating warmth in the summertime. So, the one areas of their physique that do not have fur are the pads of the toes, the tongue, the nostril, the ears, and in primates, the higher a part of the face.
And what we found… We did not uncover it, however within the previous anatomical literature, there are particular blood vessels in these non-hairy pores and skin areas. And people blood vessels have been completely not understood as to what they have been for. And what they’re is that they’re shunts between the arteries and the veins. Usually, the blood goes from arteries by means of capillaries to veins, and capillaries are excessive resistance. So, what this shunt does is it bypasses the resistance so you possibly can ship massive volumes of blood by means of these pores and skin areas and, due to this fact, dissipate warmth. So, you possibly can inform immediately, if you shake somebody’s hand what his or her thermal standing is. You could not inform that for those who touched his or her arm. So, we found this moderately common mammalian adaptation for dissipating warmth. And we have been simply utilizing it in reverse to heat the sufferers within the restoration room.
Katie: And that is so fascinating to me. Simply out of curiosity, why are sufferers so chilly popping out of anesthesia? Is that this a aspect impact of the anesthesia itself after which the physique having to re-regulate?
Craig: Effectively, if you’re underneath anesthesia, you are completely vasodilated. I imply, there is no constriction of the blood vessels. And in addition, working rooms are usually chilly so the surgeons and the nurses do not sweat. And in addition, they don’t seem to be clothed and possibly they’re being irrigated with fluids. So, it is quite common for physique temperature to drop throughout anesthesia.
Katie: That is sensible. Okay. And so, I’ll butcher the pronunciation of this, however from what I’ve learn, these are the glabrous areas of pores and skin, the fingers and the face?
Craig: Sure. Proper. It is basically non-hairy pores and skin. Now we predict we do not have bushy pores and skin, however we do. There are hair follicles in all of our pores and skin, besides these specific areas. So, we’re uncommon mammals, however we now have the identical anatomical constructions.
Katie: And so they’re distinctive as a result of the blood can go straight from… They principally skip the capillaries, it could actually go straight from veins to arteries?
Craig: That is proper. Goes truly from arteries to veins.
Katie: Arteries to veins. Obtained it.
Craig: Yeah. After which that cool blood goes proper again to the guts, and from the guts, it goes out to the muscular tissues which might be working. Okay? So, you are cooling the muscular tissues from the within out moderately from the skin in.
Katie: And so, with anesthesia, you guys discovered this innate capability to heat, however on the opposite aspect of this equation, it has some actually cool implications due to its capability to really cool, from what I perceive? And I do know there’s some superb analysis on this, however, basically, I suppose my top-level understanding is it is that warmth of the muscular tissues that is one of many limiting components throughout train, it form of results in that suggestions mechanism and tells us to cease and that we are able to form of use this identical factor to our benefit within the different route?
Craig: You are good. That is an incredible rationalization. Yeah. Completely. One other characteristic of being mammals is we now have a excessive physique temperature. So, we’re up round 37 levels, that is centigrade or 98.6 Fahrenheit. And after we train, our temperature goes up. And we do not have a number of scope. If we stand up to 40 levels, 39 or 40 levels centigrade or 100, 101 levels Fahrenheit, we’re in bother. That positively is a hazard zone for people. And that is referred to as hyperthermia. So, it is very straightforward with heavy train, and particularly within the sizzling setting… Consider ultra-marathoners in Demise Valley, you realize, they’re actually, actually taking it to the restrict and difficult their our bodies. So, if you will get that warmth out of the physique, the muscular tissues can carry on working. And we found that as a result of we have been excited about seeing what the appropriate parameters have been for extracting warmth.
In different phrases, what ought to the temperature be? What ought to the vacuum be? What needs to be the circulate charge? And so forth. We had a analysis assistant who was a health club rat, and he would go to the health club at evening after work. And so, we stated to him, “Why do not you do your exercise right here within the lab, and that’ll increase your physique temperature, after which we’ll see what are the most effective parameters for extracting that warmth.” So, he was doing pull-ups. He was doing 10 units of pull-ups to muscle failure with three-minute rests. After which on the finish of that collection of 10 pull-ups, we might measure his temperature and apply our prototype gadgets to extract the warmth. And at some point after we extracted the warmth, he went again to the pull-up bar and did the identical variety of pull-ups as in his first set and we stated, “Holy crow, what does that imply? The fatigue is gone.” And it needed to do with the temperature of the muscle. That is what we found. So, we then began cooling him after each different set of pull-ups, and his efficiency plateaued to a sure extent. So, he elevated his work quantity dramatically from at some point to the subsequent.
Katie: And I acquired to learn a abstract of that research, and it was actually astounding to me as a result of this was not a small, identical to marginal enchancment. This was a drastic distinction in efficiency even with out a number of relaxation days in between or any of the conventional stuff you would assume can be essential.
Craig: So, simply to provide the numbers, in that one specific preliminary discovery, after we began cooling him after each different set of pull-ups, he went from a complete of 180 pull-ups, which is already superb, to 618 pull-ups in 10 units. It is exceptional.
Katie: That basically, actually is astounding. That is nearly what…nearly a 4X inference, which actually speaks to basically understanding that it is not essentially the muscle energy that’s the limiting think about these exercises, it is that warmth. And from what we are able to inform within the information, is that this a secure method to truly manipulate that, like cooling the physique truly lets the physique safely carry out at that stage?
Craig: Proper. You can not decrease the physique temperature…why this system… These vessels will shut down if it will get too chilly. That is why placing your hand in a bucket of ice water will not work. It simply shuts down the warmth loss. So, it is secure, from that regard, you possibly can’t induce hypothermia. So, the hazard is that for those who get to too excessive ranges of efficiency, you truly begin doing harm to your tendons and ligaments. So, it is good to have coaches and trainers to guard towards that. However that is on the excessive finish.
Katie: And possibly most of us in regular on a regular basis exertion aren’t hitting the higher limits of athletic capability. That is only a actually superb device. And I’d guess additionally, has simply essential implications to know for the extra excessive instances as nicely. Like, as an illustration, somebody who’s hypothermic, you discovered, you possibly can heat them. If somebody is having possibly warmth stroke, I’d guess the identical is true, the best method to cool them is to chill the fingers, toes, and face, however not overcool it. So, not ice water however cool water?
Craig: Completely. You have got it. And though that is for athletic coaching… So, you talked about growing energy. Effectively, that is for certain. What occurs is that if you enhance your exercise, you enhance your work quantity, the result’s a conditioning impact. This reaching of 618 pull-ups, that was over a interval of possibly six weeks…six to eight weeks. However what you see is you see every day, you’ll be able to do some bit extra after which the remaining durations between bouts of train, that is if you get the hypertrophy of the muscle, the improved conditioning. So, you positively have impact. I had a bunch of freshman girls who have been doing an experiment that was a part of a seminar they have been in. So, we had them doing pushups. And a few of these freshman girls, not athletes, they acquired to over 800 pushups. And so they got here in at some point and so they stated, “Dr. Heller, you value us some huge cash.” Why? “We had a proper dance this weekend. All of us had to purchase new sleeveless clothes.”
Katie: That is so humorous. And I am curious, do we now have any finest practices primarily based on the analysis you’ve got finished of the most effective methods to include this? I work with some athletes in growing their athletic efficiency, I am additionally personally on a journey of getting stronger and weightlifting, after which I’ve youngsters who’re athletes. So, it makes me curious of, how can we use this in our personal lives? Like, are there finest practices for a way lengthy, or what temperature, or what that protocol seems to be like?
Craig: Sure, there are. To start with, you can examine… We’re simply popping out with a brand new machine that shall be out there that is now in form of beta testing in quite a few athletic groups, and with athletes, and with firefighters, and with navy particular forces. However you possibly can test it out on the web site, coolmitt.com, C-O-O-L-M-I-T-T.com. And that offers you an concept of what’s out there now or will quickly be out there and the way it’s finest used.
However temperature is crucial. So, for athletes or folks which might be figuring out usually, we form of set the temperature between 12 and 15 levels centigrade, temperature of the water. However, for some folks, that is too chilly. So, an instance is we have labored with a number of a number of sclerosis sufferers. And people with a number of sclerosis will be very temperature-sensitive. If the temperature goes up just a little bit, both the room temperature, the out of doors temperature, or the physique temperatures, their signs are exacerbated. And with these people, the cooling drastically reduces their signs. They’ll return to regular functioning and never have to remain in air-conditioned locations. However, for them, for those who cool their palm or surfaces, these palms of the fingers, beneath about 23 levels centigrade, then they’ll vasoconstrict. So, for these people often about 20 levels was temperature.
Katie: Okay. So, form of a rudimentary method to experiment with this feels like it will be to have cool water in that temperature vary and a cooler or one thing and take a look at placing the fingers in between units or sprints or exercises?
Craig: So, that is basically like faucet water. Okay? Let me return to one thing you talked about about security. I believe that is actually an essential subject as a result of yearly there are highschool athletes that go into heatstroke within the late summer season, early fall, with athletic practices. Now, in each single college, you’ve defibrillators, however what number of college students get coronary heart assaults? None. However many, many go into warmth sickness or warmth stroke yearly. And there are even fatalities resulting from heatstroke as a consequence of follow..not competitors, however follow.
So, I believe worrying about methods of quickly cooling these people is essential. Now, the advice for Nationwide Collegiate Athletic Affiliation is immersion in chilly water. And that completely works. That is positive for those who immerse the entire physique in chilly water, however you do not essentially have chilly water tub out there each place. Whereas, for those who assault the glabrous pores and skin, you possibly can apply it instantly. Even at first contact with the affected person, you possibly can apply it and it’ll convey them again.
Katie: Yeah. And a few follow-ups associated to this, simply from a share perspective, I take into consideration like, if you have a look at another substance that we are able to use for athletic efficiency, even steroids, you are not getting this sort of enhancements. And this can be a secure, non-invasive, non-injectable, non-supplement temperature regulation, and you are not even speaking about excessive temperature. So, even earlier than that is extra mainstream adopted, which I agree with you, this needs to be in faculties, it is a factor I really feel like as people and fogeys, we are able to implement to assist our children and to assist ourselves with coaching.
Craig: Yeah. Completely. And you set your finger proper on the crucial button, individuals are prepared to strive all types of issues that aren’t good for them. Efficiency-enhancing medication, they’re completely unhealthy information. And this truly is rather more efficacious than performance-enhancing medication. Now, you talked about weight lifting, and we’re speaking about that form of energy conditioning, but it surely’s additionally true for endurance sports activities. Now, with the present gadgets that we have constructed, we won’t take them outside and use them constantly. We will use them episodically. However we’re within the technique of designing and constructing wearable techniques. And this shall be crucial, for instance, for firefighters. And in addition, we acquired onto this as a result of we acquired emails from Ebola employees in Sierra Leone. They stated, you realize, “Now we have to deal with these sufferers, and we go into the recent zone in our PPE, private protecting gear, and we won’t be in there for greater than 15, 20 minutes. So, is not there one thing you are able to do?” So, that set us on the monitor of attempting to construct wearable techniques.
Katie: Yeah. I can see so many potential makes use of, and I am actually excited to maintain following the work you are doing on this. I even have simply anecdotally seen, in myself, the identical is true in excessive chilly as nicely. Not within the working room, however I really like doing chilly plunges generally for athletic restoration, and I’ve discovered that it is my fingers and my toes that restrict how lengthy I can get in there. And once I put on scuba gloves, like neoprene socks and gloves, I can get a lot extra muscle profit with out feeling as chilly and with out hitting that shiver level as quickly.
Craig: Proper. So, I wager if you come out, in a few minutes, you begin shivering. Yeah. So, what’s taking place is you are dropping warmth from all your peripheral tissue, your legs, your arms, and so forth. After which if you get out, your physique begins sending blood again into these limbs and it comes again into the core of your physique chilly. After which that is if you see the extreme shivering.
Katie: That is sensible. And, clearly, we have gotten to delve into the athletic and efficiency advantages of this, however there’s a lot extra associated to temperature than simply athletic efficiency. And I do know you’ve got finished analysis in different areas as nicely and that there is some crossover right here into the sleep world, which I believe shall be segue. I do know I am a giant fan of sleeping with a chili pad, which cools my sleep setting. And there is to be some well-established information on sleep temperature affecting issues like deep sleep, as an illustration, and sleep length and variety of wake-ups. However let’s simply begin broad and discuss just a little bit about your sleep analysis as nicely.
Craig: Effectively, the sleep analysis is sort of different. And very long time in the past, we did analysis on temperature and sleep, and what occurs to our regulation of physique temperature throughout sleep. Most not too long ago, my sleep analysis has to do with the position of sleep and circadian rhythms in studying in reminiscence. And particularly, we’re engaged on down syndrome, which is a situation that is very, very…it is the commonest genetic explanation for cognitive mental incapacity. And so, we have been working in that space. However going again to temperature, one of many attention-grabbing issues that was our first discovery was that, you realize, we now have two sleep states. Now we have REM sleep, fast eye motion sleep, which is one we now have vivid desires and nightmares. Okay? After which we now have non-rapid eye motion sleep, which is about 80% of our sleep.
And one of many attention-grabbing issues we discovered a very long time in the past was that in REM sleep, we do not regulate our physique temperature. The interior thermostat is turned off. That’s only a aspect remark. Throughout non-REM sleep, we do regulate our physique temperature, however at a decrease stage than throughout wake. So, the thermostat within the mind is ready to a decrease stage if you fall asleep. Now, for those who fall asleep and you feel cool within the night, which is probably going, you will pull on plenty of covers. Okay? And quarter-hour later, you get up sweating as a result of what’s occurred is you insulated your self to the temperature of your physique…to your regulated temperature earlier than sleep, your thermostat will get set down and now you are too sizzling.
So, it is true {that a} cool setting is a lot better for sleeping. And the rationale for that ties these two areas of analysis collectively. What occurs if you’re too sizzling in mattress? You stick out your fingers otherwise you stick out your toes from underneath the covers, proper? So, for those who’re in a heat setting, that does not assist. However for those who’re in a cool setting, that makes it attainable to return again into the regulated temperature that your mind is telling you you have to be at.
Katie: That is sensible. And I’ve learn how there’s that…mammals have that adaptation of that our physique temperature does are inclined to go up, I believe just a little bit, throughout sleep, which I’ve heard it defined, it got here from sleeping on the bottom and the temperature on the bottom would convey your physique temperature down, so we developed that adaptation to warmth the physique. However now we’re sleeping in these temperature-controlled environments, and such as you stated, we get sizzling in the midst of the evening.
Craig: Effectively, yeah. Typically, temperature goes down with sleep. It goes down with the circadian timing of sleep as nicely. It comes again up and it begins coming again up within the morning earlier than you get up. Okay? So, temperatures usually decrease late within the day than round midday, however then if you fall asleep, it takes an additional dip. There’s an organization that I’ve been an advisor for referred to as Eight Sleep, and so they make a mattress which is temperature-controlled. However, as well as, you possibly can program it to a temperature cycle that finest matches your physique’s settings. Okay? And not too long ago, the San Francisco 49ers purchased these beds for all of their gamers, and so they love them. They are saying they’re getting a lot better sleep.
Katie: Having experimented with the temperature regulation at evening, I’ll say it spoils you although. Now once I journey, I miss with the ability to be cool at evening. However from understanding this, wouldn’t it be logical to then assume that if somebody wore simply the cool mitt throughout sleep, it will have an analogous and even probably greater impact, or would you not need to put on that in sleep?
Craig: I believe it will have an impact. I do not essentially know that it will be greater. The opposite factor is simply cooling earlier than you fall asleep. So, for those who used it earlier than sleep so it removed any extra warmth load that you’ve… For example you probably did a exercise within the night, you are going to go to mattress with an additional warmth load. So, for those who may take that warmth load away, it will facilitate your sleep.
Katie: That is sensible. I’ve seen, and I do not assume most individuals need to do that, but when I get within the chilly plunge like an hour or so earlier than bedtime, my deep sleep numbers enhance, which is sensible, in gentle of what you simply stated, however I really feel like most individuals aren’t gonna be gung-ho about leaping into chilly water proper earlier than mattress. So, this may be a neater, gentler method.
Craig: Yeah. Proper. I believe so.
Katie: And I believe sleep is a giant subject for mothers, particularly with youngsters at numerous ages and what comes together with that. So, primarily based in your analysis, what are a few of these sensible issues we are able to pull that may be ideas to assist enhance sleep high quality and length primarily based on what you are seeing within the analysis?
Craig: Effectively, there was a giant sea change within the sleep drugs world within the final decade or so. And 20 years in the past, the large factor have been sleeping drugs, all types of various sorts of sleeping drugs. And lots of of them are nonetheless out there now and are used and are literally prescribed for individuals who have critical issues. However these medication have issues as nicely. You change into acclimated to them, and due to this fact the doses must go up, must go up, must go up. And so they have uncomfortable side effects, okay? So, what has occurred within the sleep drugs world within the final 10, 15 years, has been the rise of behavioral remedy, cognitive-behavioral remedy. And that is used to enhance sleep hygiene. So, sleep hygiene feels like an odd idea, however it’s. It is what you are able to do to enhance the standard of your sleep.
And there are straightforward issues resembling have a scheduled bedtime. Do not simply work till you are feeling as for those who do not need to work anymore after which go to mattress. You understand, do not do this. Have a scheduled bedtime. And do not work, or do not do issues that you’d usually be doing throughout the day for the hour or hour and a half, two hours earlier than bedtime. Okay? One of many crucial issues is to not use computer systems as a result of computer systems have a number of blue gentle. And what blue gentle does is, within the night, publicity to blue gentle phase-delays your circadian system. So, it makes you react as if it is not as late because it actually is. Okay? So, you do not need to phase-delay your circadian system. You need your circadian clock to favor sleep on the proper time.
One other factor is simply preserve a particular sleep setting, and that is referred to as contextual conditioning, so that you just solely affiliate the bed room with sleep and intercourse. That is it, you realize? Not work, you do not use your bed room as an workplace. Now, for individuals who reside in effectivity flats, that may be tough, however there are methods you are able to do it in establishing the room. And, in fact, the crucial factor is your individual conduct. Flip off the pc an hour earlier than mattress. Do not attempt to be considering proper up till bedtime after which count on your mind’s gonna shut off and fall asleep.
Katie: And I’ve seen that gentle manipulation within the morning additionally appears to have a giant affect on sleep patterns as nicely. And I inform folks this quite a bit, it is a free…appears so easy, and it has such a profound influence, simply going exterior. Even when it is a cloudy day, simply going exterior if you get up, begins that clock.
Craig: Oh, yeah. Exterior gentle, even on a cloudy day is tons of…no, hundreds of occasions brighter than your inside gentle. We do not understand it as a result of our eyes quickly alter to the sunshine stage. However if you go exterior, you get a lot, a lot larger visible stimulation, gentle stimulation. And early morning gentle, together with train, is nice for conserving your circadian clock synchronized. Your circadian clock isn’t working at precisely 24 hours. So, some individuals are early, they’re larks, and different individuals are owls, they have an inclination to run later daily. However one of many methods you retain your clock in sync with the actual world is that gentle publicity within the morning.
Katie: And you’ve got additionally, from my studying, finished some work particular to insomnia. And this can be a drawback I hear from increasingly more people who find themselves seeming to expertise insomnia. Do you’ve any insomnia-specific suggestions?
Craig: I’m not an skilled on insomnia in any respect. And the first remedies or the beneficial remedies for insomnia are the cognitive behavioral remedy, establishing a sample of sleep so that you just count on to sleep, you are prepared for sleep, you are in the appropriate place for sleep daily. Now, for people who find themselves actually, actually, you realize, horrible insomniacs, there are protocols which might be used. So, one of many issues that’s used is a protocol during which the people are solely allowed to be in mattress for, for instance, six hours or seven hours. Okay?
And so, day after day, they’re solely allowed to be in mattress for six hours. So, they’re gonna get a sleep debt. They’ll get, you realize, stress for sleep. Okay. So, then permit them seven hours. Okay. So, ultimately, get to a degree the place if you go to mattress, you’re tuned to sleep. So, it appears counterproductive to deprive somebody of sleep who has insomnia, however that is a approach of getting their system again in sync with the way in which it needs to be functioning.
Katie: That is sensible. I hadn’t thought of that method.
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You additionally talked about REM sleep being the time of desires and nightmares. And that is truly a breakfast dialog not too long ago at my home that I’d love to have the ability to clarify to my youngsters higher, however why can we dream? What’s taking place to our brains throughout your dream states?
Craig: Effectively, after we are in REM sleep, we’re paralyzed. There’s inhibition of all the instructions going out to our muscular tissues. So, the supposed rationale for this, the evolutionary rationale, is that it prevents us from appearing out our desires. Okay? So, appearing out desires isn’t sleepwalking. Sleepwalking happens in non-REM sleep. However appearing out desires for somebody who has REM sleep problem, they’ll injure themselves or their sleeping companions due to violent actions. They’ll stand up from mattress and begin to run and run into one thing. They’ll do one thing very violent, like break furnishings or put their head by means of a wall. It is unimaginable what folks can do with REM conduct dysfunction. So, to forestall that, or the rationale we do not do that’s our muscular tissues are basically paralyzed throughout REM sleep.
And that additionally applies to a number of the sensory enter. So, what’s taking place within the mind throughout REM sleep is the mind is reactivated. So, for those who have a look at the electroencophilic REM, the EEG, the EEG of REM sleep seems to be similar to wakefulness as a result of the cortex of the mind, the considering cap of the mind, is reactivated. Okay? So, that reactivation is impartial of any suggestions from muscular tissues and any sensory enter. So, it is like placing the mind in impartial. It could simply freely affiliate. And that is why we get these…what appear to be affordable desires after we’re dreaming, however then after we get up, we understand how weird they have been. They’re simply completely unrealistic. However they could have elements of issues that have been on our minds earlier than we went to sleep, issues that occurred the day earlier than. Nevertheless it’s a course of, I believe, of free affiliation of knowledge within the mind, not constrained by sensory suggestions from muscular tissues and joints and from eyes and ears, and so forth.
Katie: And I do not know if that is true, you possibly can verify or deny for me, however I’ve learn that generally if you’re falling asleep and you’ve got that have of like jolting for a second, that that’s the physique form of testing to see if you’re going into that state of paralysis. Is that proper or is that city fantasy?
Craig: It is in all probability a fantasy. And the reason being that besides in sure pathological circumstances, we do not go into REM sleep instantly from wakefulness. We at all times enter sleep by means of non-REM sleep after which after… Effectively, after we go to mattress after about possibly 60 minutes, we’ll have our first REM episode. Okay? After which it cycles all through the evening, about 5 cycles of non-REM, REM, non-REM, REM. And rather more REM late within the evening, a a lot deeper non-REM early within the evening. So, what you are fascinated by or speaking about might be this drowsy state or what we name stage one non-REM sleep in which there’s nonetheless some affiliation with wakeful expertise. And swiftly, you could understand you are falling asleep after which you’ve some transient arousal that you just return as much as wakefulness. So, it is that tough stage between wakefulness and sleep that’s not secure, and that can lead to… One other factor it leads to is a giant phrase, hypnagogic hallucinations. So, it is as soon as once more, form of like a dreamlike situation, but it surely’s not REM sleep.
Katie: Okay. That is useful to know. And I would love to speak just a little bit extra about sleep phases. And possibly now that issues like Oura rings and trackers have gotten extra fashionable, folks have extra information associated to their sleep. I’ve learn that deep sleep is a reparative state of the physique and that it is an essential factor to make it possible for we’re getting sufficient deep sleep. I’ve seen in my very own life, like I stated, cool appears to assist deep sleep in addition to not consuming too near bedtime, getting morning daylight. However is {that a} appropriate understanding, that we needs to be prioritizing this deep restfulness, and what are a number of the methods we are able to hopefully result in better-quality sleep?
Craig: Yeah. Effectively, you simply talked about one thing very attention-grabbing, and that’s not consuming too late. That has one other impact, and that’s weight acquire. That the identical variety of energy eaten late has a a lot greater impact on physique weight than eaten earlier. So, to keep up physique weight, even with no food regimen or what have you ever, for those who take late eaters and you set them on a extra affordable schedule, like consuming at 5:00 or 6:00 within the night, you realize, 6:00, 7:00 within the night, they’ll drop extra pounds even with out imposing any dietary restrictions. So, that is possibly not what you have been considering, however there are many well being… Effectively, let me simply say this. To start with, we spend one-third of our lives sleeping, however we do not know why. So, I can not provide you with any definitive reply.
I may give you solutions which might be partial, in different phrases, concepts about what sleep features are and why we all know that or why we predict that, however there is no one who can say sleep is for this specific perform. It in all probability has many features. And we now are understanding that the evolution of sleep is far deeper than we thought beforehand as a result of our main approach of learning sleep has been the electroencephalogram. The electroencephalogram is barely good for mammals and birds which have a cerebral cortex. Okay? So, it wasn’t helpful for learning turtles, and fish, and snakes, and lizards, and different issues.
However now we’re starting to make use of totally different metrics for figuring out sleep and traits of sleep. And it appears the farther again we go within the evolutionary historical past, the extra proof we discover for sleep-like states. Now, whether or not they serve the identical perform in all animals, we do not know. So, we’re just about restricted to learning… For practical research, we just about restricted to mammals, however there’s increasingly more research being finished on different species resembling fruit flies, zebrafish. And these are actually fashionable fashions for learning sleep.
Katie: Yeah. And shorter lifespan makes them simpler to review. That is actually fascinating about… I do know there’s analysis behind that of not consuming near bedtime and I do know it is not as socially enjoyable or straightforward to adapt typically to our regular life-style, however I do discover probably the most distinction once I cease consuming by even like 4:00 or 5:00 within the afternoon. And in the case of like time-restricted feeding, doing that earlier within the day, which… it looks as if physiologically our our bodies are designed to soak up and break down energy earlier within the day anyway, and we now have that longer digestive interval the place we predict we’re fasting, however we nonetheless have meals in our physique. And so, giving time for that earlier than sleep. And I really feel like every dialogue on sleep and temperature, I’d be remiss to not ask, and I’ve a be aware to ask you about hibernation and bears. I do know, completely a deviation, however I am so curious simply to listen to just a little bit about that.
Craig: Oh, yeah. So, I’ve finished a number of work in my profession on hibernators, however nearly all small hibernators, as a result of you possibly can preserve them within the lab. So, floor squirrels and chipmunks, and hamsters, and so forth. And we have finished quite a bit to indicate that hibernation is admittedly an evolutionary extension of sleep. That downward regulation of physique temperature throughout sleep is exaggerated in hibernators. And the opposite factor which isn’t exaggerated however dampened is the circadian system. As a result of the circadian system features to wake us up, it helps alertness moderately than sleep. So, there are animals that go into toper every day, so their circadian system continues to be waking them up on the finish of the sleep section. However in different animals which might be true hibernators, they’ll go into toper for a lot of days, possibly seven, eight days.
So, what we present in these animals is that the circadian system is dampened approach, approach, approach down. So, in a few of them, it nonetheless continues to perform and may very well be what brings them out of hibernation each seven days or so. However the query was at all times, what about bears? You understand, folks have argued whether or not bears hibernate or not. So, certain, they disappear within the winter, they go into their winter dens, however there was some proof that they have been nonetheless pretty heat. They weren’t actually in deep hibernation. So, fairly just a few years in the past, some colleagues and I made a decision we have been gonna reply this query. And considered one of my colleagues, Brian Barnes, was at College of Alaska the place bears are widespread. So, what we did is we constructed a facility at College of Alaska the place we may preserve bears over winter, and we may instrument them with EEG and EMG. So, electroencephalogram, electromyogram, electrooculogram, physique temperature, metabolism, and so forth and so forth, and research all of them winter lengthy.
And it is true that they… The place did the bears come from? There is a “three strikes you’re out” regulation in Alaska that if a bear is an issue bear and it comes right into a group, it is going to be trapped and brought away and launched. Effectively, it is collared then, in order that they know who’s who. And if the bear comes again 3 times then it is eradicated, it is euthanized. So, we requested the Alaska Fish and Recreation to allow us to have a few these bears every winter. So, through the years, we have studied 18 bears. And this is a gigantic, monumental quantity of information as a result of, you realize, EEG is one thing which is being collected on a frequency of lower than a second, you realize, many occasions per second. So, you possibly can think about the quantity of recordings, the info information. So, we’re analyzing all of that now.
However what we discovered is the bears do go into toper, however they go down solely to about 32, 33 levels physique temperature. They don’t have these periodic arousals throughout the winter just like the small hibernators do each 5, 6, 7 days, they arrive out of hibernation and return in once more. The opposite factor that is attention-grabbing is that the small hibernators, as they enter hibernation, they lose REM sleep. They’ve then nearly steady what appears to be steady with non-REM sleep. And the bears have REM and non-REM sleep throughout hibernation. And the opposite factor is that they lose their circadian rhythms. Through the hibernation season, they now not have a circadian rhythm and within the spring, that begins to return again. So, these are the kinds of issues we’re studying in regards to the bears.
Katie: That is so fascinating and doubtless very enjoyable analysis to get to do. That sounds thrilling.
Craig: Yeah. And it may have crucial medical functions in a while as a result of within the induction of hypothermia, may very well be a invaluable process to have the ability to use on stroke victims, coronary heart assault victims, individuals who have had traumatic accidents. However there’s quite a bit we do not learn about how the human physique features at low temperature. So, if we learn the way the bears, one other massive mammal, how the bears have tailored to perform at a decrease temperature, that would have medical functions.
Katie: Effectively, I am excited to maintain following your analysis on that. And some questions I wanna be certain that we now have time to get by means of, you talked about your analysis on studying and reminiscence, and I’d love to simply hear what the purpose is with that and the present state of what you are associated to studying and reminiscence.
Craig: Effectively, we got here to this due to a graduate pupil of a colleague. His title is Fabian Fernandez. He is now a professor at College of Arizona and he began investigating studying and reminiscence in a mouse mannequin of down syndrome. And the mouse mannequin has extreme studying deficits identical to people with down syndrome do. And Fabian got here up with the concept… And we take into consideration the nervous system nearly as a puppet grasp pulling strings, you realize, the neuron fires, and the muscle twitches. And what Fabian stated is we have a tendency to consider the nervous system an excessive amount of by way of excitation, however what about inhibition? You understand, inhibition is essential. So, the mind has to have a stability of excitation/inhibition. So, he thought possibly it is the inhibition which is simply too excessive.
So, the very first thing we did is we did research of sleep and circadian rhythms in these mice and we discovered there have been no dramatic variations in sleep. And really, their circadian rhythms have been stronger. So, we knew that sleep and circadian rhythms are concerned in studying and reminiscence, however they did not appear to be the issue with the down syndrome mannequin mice. And what Fabian found is that if he enhanced inhibition within the mind… There are particular neurotransmitters, the chemical substances that talk between neurons. There are particular neurotransmitters that are inhibitory. So, he used medication which mimic the exercise of these neurotransmitters. And lo and behold, the educational was normalized. These animals that had extreme studying incapacity have been now functioning like their littermates who did not have the situation.
After which probably the most exceptional factor on this analysis was {that a} short-term remedy with these medication resulted in a really long-term normalization. So, it wasn’t simply, you realize, you’re taking the tablet and also you get an impact. No. The short-term remedy, two weeks of every day doses with the drug normalized the conduct for months. So, it modified the way in which the mind was functioning. So, our problem has been, to begin with, doing as a lot characterization of those drug results as attainable to have the ability to transfer it to the clinic, but additionally, to know what is modified within the mind. And that is fairly sophisticated neurophysiology, which I do not assume I may describe.
Katie: That is actually thrilling although. What else is in the way forward for analysis for you? Like I stated, I comply with your analysis, so, I am excited to listen to.
Craig: Effectively, we’re learning now one other gene, which is triplicated in Down syndrome. And this gene, its title is USP 16. So, it is not United Parcel Service, but it surely’s USP 16. And what this gene does is it is very a lot concerned in figuring out when… You have heard of stem cells, cells that may turn into any form of totally different cell. So, what this gene does is it performs a job in figuring out whether or not the stem cells differentiate once they divide or whether or not they produce one other stem cell. So, that is referred to as renewal. So, are they maintaining the inhabitants of stem cells or are they happening the pathway to differentiation? And the triplication of this gene in down syndrome mannequin mice has a giant impact on growth. So, the brains are smaller in all probability as a result of the neural stem cells have differentiated moderately than maintained themselves. Bone cells are affected.
So, the down syndrome mice have a a lot increased stage of osteoporosis-like signs, and that’s improved by eliminating this specific triplication. The opposite method we’re taking is wanting on the… There’s one other gene which may be very crucial, which is triplicated and that is what’s referred to as the amyloid precursor protein gene. It’s extremely a lot concerned in Alzheimer’s illness. And people with down syndrome have early-onset Alzheimer’s, so we’re learning what the profit is by normalizing the APP gene in these animals. So, that is the form of factor we’re doing. Within the case of the human efficiency, we proceed to review the position of temperature in muscle perform. And one of many issues we’re discovering now could be that the manufacturing of lactate by muscle is temperature-dependent. So, we all know there’s the parable that muscle failure, muscle fatigue, is attributable to lactic acid.
Effectively, it is actually extra accurately lactate, which is produced, not lactic acid. However we all know now that lactate doesn’t trigger fatigue. You may truly elevate blood lactate ranges and it would not impact efficiency, however you probably have excessive efficiency, you get an increase in blood lactate. So, may or not it’s that lactate doesn’t trigger fatigue, however fatigue causes lactate? And what’s it in regards to the chemistry, the power chemistry within the muscle, that leads to that elevation of lactate? What we discover is that the lactate threshold, the edge of exercise that you just begin seeing rise of lactate within the blood is a perform of physique temperature.
That if we begin folks exercising in low physique temperature, they go quite a bit longer earlier than they begin exhibiting this enhance in lactate. If they begin at a excessive physique temperature, lactate comes up in a short time. So, we’re learning basically what the importance of that’s. So, it is clearly a biomarker of fatigue, and if we may use that as a biomarker, we may maybe enhance conditioning protocols. We may design conditioning protocols that did not trigger fatigue so quickly.
Katie: Effectively, that circles again to the place our dialog began. I am very excited to proceed following that work and in addition to experiment with this myself simply anecdotally as I attempt to get stronger and elevate weights, and with my youngsters as athletes. Like I stated, I’ve adopted your work for some time, and it is an absolute honor to get to listen to extra about it at this time. A few final wrap-up questions. The primary being, if there’s a e-book or quite a few books which have profoundly impacted your life, and if that’s the case, what they’re and why?
Craig: Effectively, I learn very broadly. So I can not say anybody e-book, however I have a tendency to love to learn novels as a result of they inform me about circumstances of the world, circumstances of life, that aren’t in my expertise. So, it broadens my information of what is taking place in nature and on the earth. I prefer to learn books about unimaginable human performances like Arctic exploration or one thing that’s simply, you realize, superb as a result of that I take pleasure in studying about what the actual limits are or aren’t for human efficiency. After which, maybe, this isn’t what you would possibly count on to listen to. One of many books that is had a big impact on my life is my very own e-book. I’ve a textbook with different authors referred to as “Life: The Science of Biology.” So, we’re now going into our thirteenth version. So, why does this have such a big effect on me? It forces me, each few years, to replace myself in my subject broadly. So, if I hadn’t had that e-book to fret about, I in all probability would’ve narrowed, narrowed, narrowed my work and my pursuits and fallen approach behind in understanding different areas of my subject, usually.
Katie: That’s positively a brand new suggestion. I am going to make it possible for’s linked as nicely if I can discover it on-line and…
Craig: I am going to at all times sustain.
Katie: I really like that. The place can folks comply with you and your work in the event that they wanna continue learning extra from you or see your analysis?
Craig: Effectively, that is query. I do not know. I’m not superb at maintaining a web site, however we’re constructing a web site now for our down analysis work and it is basically the Down Syndrome Analysis Middle at Stanford. So, that may be pulled up. And CoolMitt web site goes to be posting all of our work. It posts already the work that we have finished. So, you possibly can entry the scientific papers, the research that we have finished by means of that individual entry.
Katie: I am going to make it possible for’s linked within the present notes. For you guys listening, wellnessmama.fm. And, maybe, we are able to do one other spherical at some point with some updates and analysis as issues go alongside. After which, lastly, any parting recommendation for the viewers at this time that may very well be associated to something we have talked about or solely unrelated life recommendation?
Craig: Positive. One bit of recommendation I give my college students is comply with your pursuits. Do not let different folks inform you what you have to be doing. Observe your pursuits as a result of it is when you find yourself excited about what you are doing, you will do your finest work. So then you definitely would possibly ask, “What restrictions needs to be placed on that?” And that jogs my memory recommendation that I at all times gave my daughter when she was rising up and he or she hated it. And this got here from the musical, “Hair,” this previous musical of hippie days. And the quote from the musical was, “Do no matter you wanna do, be no matter you wanna be, simply as long as you do not damage anyone.”
Katie: I like it.
Craig: I assumed that was superb recommendation. And the opposite recommendation I would provide you with is sleep nicely. Sleep is essential. There are three pillars to well being, food regimen, train, and sleep. And we are usually fairly good about our food regimen and fairly spiritual about our train, however we’re at all times able to sacrifice sleep when there’s one thing else we predict we needs to be doing. And that is not good.
Katie: Effectively, that is an ideal place to wrap up. Thanks for sharing your time at this time and for all of the work that you just’re doing. This was such a enjoyable dialog, and I am very grateful to you for being right here.
Craig: Thanks. I loved it. And I really like speaking with you. You’re actually an excellent questioner. You perceive what we’re speaking about. Thanks.
Katie: Thanks. And thanks, as at all times, to all of you for listening, sharing your most useful assets, your time, your power, and your consideration with us at this time. We’re each so grateful that you just did. And I hope that you’ll be part of me once more on the subsequent episode of the “WellnessMama Podcast.”

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